allegedly with Bo and Ryan | Episode 3
In Episode 3 of Allegedly… with Bo and Ryan, Bo throws down a challenge for the ages – if your life was on the line which fictional lawyer would you call and why? Listen to hear their top picks and let us know who you would choose!
Allegedly… with Bo and Ryan Podcast E3 | Transcript
Ryan: [00:00:00] He said, “Yeah, we don’t need a criminal lawyer. We need a criminal, lawyer.” Welcome to allegedly with Bo and Ryan, the only Entertainment and Law podcast that brings you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Allegedly.
Bo: [00:00:17] I’m Bo Bowen.
Ryan: [00:00:18] And I’m Ryan Schmidt.
Bo: [00:00:20] You’re listening to Allegedly with Bo and Ryan. We’re coming to you from our law offices in beautiful historic Savannah, Georgia, where we’ll be chatting about pop culture, hot legal topics in the news, and doing our best to change the way people think about the law and lawyers. But first, a little about us. Ryan got his start in the law by playing his guitar for spare change in hallways outside of federal courtrooms.
Ryan: [00:00:47] And Bo was the stunt double for Steven Seagal and Jean-Claude Van Damme throughout the nineties. Together, we are Savannah’s consummate renegade legal titans…
Bo: [00:00:57] and the only corporate and entertainment lawyers in the free world who have never lost a single case, allegedly. Welcome to S1E3, Ryan. You know, for those of us in the industry that season one Episode three.
Ryan: [00:01:18] Wow, look at you.
Bo: [00:01:19] A little inside baseball there.
Ryan: [00:01:21] I guess so.
Bo: [00:01:22] So what is new in Ryan World this week?
Ryan: [00:01:25] Everything is going well, Bo. Last week I was with my wife in wine country. We had a nice couple of days just soaking up the California sunshine. And I am back, I am refreshed, I am excited to be here talking with you.
Bo: [00:01:37] Well, that’s good to hear because I actually have designed a challenge for you this week, my friend.
Ryan: [00:01:44] Okay.
Bo: [00:01:45] How do you feel about doing a little fictional lawyer draft today?
Ryan: [00:01:50] I love that. What do you what do you have in mind?
Bo: [00:01:52] Well, here’s the rules, okay. Picture it. You have a case. Okay, I’m talking a case that your life, your career, your family, everything is on the line and you can pick any fictional lawyer to represent you. Anyone from movies, television, books, you name it. Who are your top three and why? What do you think?
Ryan: [00:02:21] I love that. Wow- I mean, there are so many good choices to choose from.
Bo: [00:02:26] Yeah, there’s a lot I’ve been, I’ve been thinking about it, so I got a little bit of an advantage, but I’m going to see what you can come up with. So I’m going to let you go first. Let’s start– why don’t we start with your third-round draft pick and work up to our team captain? So most important case of your life, who is the fictional lawyer you draft in the third round, Mr. Schmidt?
Ryan: [00:02:50] Oh, man. All right, life, case, everything is on the line. I’m going to say, are you familiar with the show Inventing Anna?
Bo: [00:03:00] Yes, I am, Because I’m not poor.
Ryan: [00:03:06] Well, well played. So I’m going to have to go with Todd Spodek, the defense attorney for Anna Delvey in Inventing Anna.
Bo: [00:03:15] Well, that kind of raises an interesting question. I mean, I think Todd is actually based on a real person. So does that count as a fictional character?
Ryan: [00:03:26] Well, I mean, it’s kind of cheating, but I’m not — no offense to the real Todd Spodek, I’m sure he’s a great guy, but I’m really thinking about the guy who plays him on the Netflix show.
Bo: [00:03:37] Well, I’m going to make a call. And because he also played Stewie on succession, I’m going to allow it.
Ryan: [00:03:44] Thank you. I appreciate that. And I cannot for the life of me pronounce his the actor’s name Aryan Moayed. I think that’s close enough. But.
Bo: [00:03:56] But you definitely does not sound anywhere close.
Ryan: [00:03:58] But you’re going to call him and we’ll find out anyway. So that’s perfect.
Bo: [00:04:02] So why do you like Todd Spodek? So why is he your third-round draft pick?
Ryan: [00:04:07] I like him because unlike so many TV lawyers, he’s just a likable, relatable, and empathetic guy. I mean, this is throughout the series– it really shows this lawyer who is a solo practitioner who isn’t afraid to get his hands dirty. And above all, he takes on these insurmountable odds for the — for his client. I mean, he puts his client first. And you can really see that he puts it out on the line for them.
Bo: [00:04:40] You know, and it’s interesting, during that show, you really actually see him grow as a lawyer as he goes through that case.
Ryan: [00:04:48] Oh, absolutely. I mean, when you see him take on the case and just bail her out of jail, bail Annna out of jail, he’s really even wondering if if he’s got what it takes everybody in the police station and in the district attorney’s office, like, you know, you’re punching above your weight class here. You know, is this something you want to take on and he certainly rises to the occasion.
Bo: [00:05:10] Yes, he does. Well, that’s an excellent pick. So third-round draft pick for Mr. Schmidt, Todd Spodek.
Ryan: [00:05:17] And plus, I know that in a pinch he would hire a stylist and I would come in and I would my outfits would be on fire.
Bo: [00:05:25] I like it. Well played.
Ryan: [00:05:27] Well, what do you got? I mean, for third-round pick, you’ve got to have some, some good ones up your sleeve if you came up with this.
Bo: [00:05:34] Oh yeah. Well my third-round draft pick narrowly edging out Patty Hewes from damages.
Ryan: [00:05:41] Sure.
Bo: [00:05:42] Ruthless, cutthroat lawyer played by Glenn Close. I’m going with Alan Shore from Boston Legal, played by James Spader.
Ryan: [00:05:51] Oh, yes.
Bo: [00:05:52] Now, word of warning to the listeners. You should probably never go back and watch reruns of Boston Legal. It is, in fact, wildly inappropriate, I would probably put it on my Mount Rushmore of television shows that have aged badly right up there with Dukes of Hazzard.
Ryan: [00:06:17] Yeah, I actually this is I’m excited to hear from you about this because I actually haven’t seen Boston Legal. I’ve heard your your stories about different courtroom antics and brilliance. But, you know, I’ve also heard that in the in the age of MeToo and stuff like that, probably not so great.
Bo: [00:06:34] Well, Alan Shore, as played by James Spader, easily one of the best, most entertaining, funniest lawyers in television history. I mean, you of course, you get everything that you would expect from James Spader, very sarcastic, you know, infuriating to everyone around him, over the top, womanizing. But he is the epitome of the lawyer that would use any means necessary to win a case and not care one bit if he got caught doing it.
Ryan: [00:07:09] All right. Well. Give me an example.
Bo: [00:07:11] Well, he’s the kind of guy he will just simply destroy the other lawyer in court. You know, in the most unorthodox, crazy way you can think of. You know, the lawyer could be in the middle of this just crucial emotional point, you know, point he’s trying to make the jury eating out of the palm of his hand. And Alan just stands up and says, I object, Your Honor. On what grounds, Mr. Shaw? Well, on the grounds, I don’t like what Mr. Smith has to say, and it’s just stupid. Well, guess what? Judge gets pissed off, but the trial goes on, and now the other lawyer is completely off his game, and the jury is laughing. So he’s definitely a fan of stunts that you would never get away with in real life. But it’s still damn fun to watch on the show.
Ryan: [00:08:06] Absolutely. And I, I believe we did talk about Alan Shore a little bit in episode one where we said that he’s one of those omni omni present. Omni. What was it? Only disciplinary lawyers that can do just about anything.
Bo: [00:08:21] Oh, absolutely. But you know, and it’s setting his stunts aside. I mean, what made him what got him on my list is the fact that. The dude was brilliant. I mean, it’s one of those shows where, you know, you’re watching it. The other lawyer goes first, does his closing argument, and you’re just like, this case is over. There is absolutely no way Allen can win this case now. And then he stands up and just blows you away with this amazing closing argument and you’re just left like, Dang, he just kicked your ass. Oh, man, he was, I mean… And the other thing I really liked about him, for all his faults, he actually could be oddly inspiring, like, even to, like, as a lawyer watching the show because he never met a cause he was unwilling to take on. He never met a system he was unwilling to fight. The unwinnable case is what always attracted him. When it seemed hopeless, he had just this brilliance and the style that turned everything around and made him look like a crusading hero to the jury. And that’s why Alan Shore, my number three draft pick.
Ryan: [00:09:45] I love that. That’s awesome.
Bo: [00:09:47] So how about you up to number two now?
Ryan: [00:09:50] Number two, I mean, you had the benefit of of preparing for this. I mean, I’m just I’m pulling them out. I’ve been thinking about different lawyers, you know, since our first episode, different lawyers that I think are great. Some get it so right, some get it so wrong. But I’m going to try something a little a little bit different. You know, I know I kind of cheated on the first one. We had Todd Spodek, who is a real lawyer. But, you know, again, I’ll buy you a beer, you seem like a great guy, but I want to I want to go get a beer with Stewie first. But..
Bo: [00:10:24] That’s fair.
Ryan: [00:10:25] But now, you know, I was thinking, how about Matt Murdock, a.k.a Daredevil?
Bo: [00:10:31] Oh, going to M.C.U.
Ryan: [00:10:35] Oh, of course. Yeah. Let’s be clear. I’m not talking about Ben Affleck here. I’m talking about Netflix, M.C.U., Daredevil.
Bo: [00:10:43] Charlie Cox.
Ryan: [00:10:44] That’s right. That’s right. And I mean, for the that’s for me that’s two Netflix series in a row. And you know, they certainly aren’t a sponsor of this show. Not that I’d be mad if they were. But you know I guess now he’s more in the MCU now that that property switched over to Disney and Disney plus. But you know what I love about him is he doubles as a lawyer and a crime-fighting vigilante. So if your life is truly on the line, you really got to two bites at the apple here, right? You’ve got the legal case. You lose that? He’s also going to open a can of whoop ass.
Bo: [00:11:24] So I guess for you, it’s kind of like looking in the mirror.
Ryan: [00:11:27] Oh, yeah. No, there’s there’s a lot of similarities there. I mean, even just the abs. Yeah, there’s there’s a lot there I can really resonate with.
Bo: [00:11:36] I am only sorry that our listeners aren’t able to actually see your abs while you’re talking about them.
Ryan: [00:11:42] I’m not sorry. But there’s also times where he puts down the masks throughout the series and just focuses exclusively on representing clients. And and he certainly picks clients that, you know, come from these indigent backgrounds who really need it for an extended period of time. He goes on this whole pro bono stint after, you know, he fights the basically the Yakuza and, you know, his girlfriend who was also an assassin, and she dies and he says, okay, you know, I’m going to put down the vigilantism for a second, I’m going to take it to the to the courthouse and be a be a fighter for justice. And I think that’s pretty cool. I mean, what other superhero who can go out and, you know, whomp on everybody also has the intellect and the ability to kind of put that down. Like you can do backflips, you can do you can do anything you want to do. You can beat up anybody you want to beat up. You can essentially take over the world. But he’s like, I’m going to go in the courtroom and I’m going to going to help in that way.
Bo: [00:12:48] Well, the jury’s still out on She-Hulk attorney at law. So…
Ryan: [00:12:54] Is it?! I mean, I haven’t seen it, but I don’t know. It’s something about, you know, it’s very off putting just the just the look of the character in general, to I mean, it’s just a it’s a weird it’s a weird show. But I’m sure that there will be a future episode where we we both watch the entire series and probably enjoy it. And then we dive deep into whether or not that was legally accurate.
Bo: [00:13:20] All right. Fair enough. And I will say Daredevil had one of my favorite cameos of last year in the new Spider-Man movie. Did you see that?
Ryan: [00:13:28] Oh, of course. I mean, that’s probably the the peak of his legal abilities that Spider-Man is essentially being investigated by like the feds and like all these different states attorney generals for murder of a villain. If you haven’t seen or if you have seen, you know, in the second movie, Jake Gyllenhaal’s character, right before he dies, you know, kind of points at Spider-Man, says this is Peter Parker. And by the way, he killed me, which was all kind of BS. But that that opened up a whole bunch of legal issues for Spider-Man. And then Matt Murdock shows up, shows up introducing him to the M.C.U. What’s up? We’re no longer in Netflix. And not only does he get him off for murder, but probably one of my my favorite lines in the whole movie is he’s talking to Peter Parker and they’re in the living room and a brick comes through the window just and it’s coming straight towards Peter. And, you know, Peter, he’s Spider-Man — he’s got the spidey sense and he’s kind of he kind of is tensed and his hands ready to catch the brick. He’s like, I’ve got this. Well before it even reaches him, Matt Murdock just puts his hand out, snatches it out of thin air. He’s blind, mind you. Boom. Got it. And Peter Parker is like, Holy hell, like, what happened here? And he says, “I’m a very good lawyer.”
Bo: [00:14:56] Definitely on the virtue of that scene worthy of a second-rounw draft pick.
Ryan: [00:15:00] Thank you. Well, well, who do you who do you have for number two?
Bo: [00:15:04] Well, my second-round draft pick also from the world of television, maybe a little controversial.
Ryan: [00:15:09] Okay.
Bo: [00:15:09] Narrowly edging out Kim Wexler from the same show, none other than Saul Goodman. Better call Saul, played by Bob Odenkirk.
Ryan: [00:15:20] Yes.
Bo: [00:15:21] A.k.a. Jimmy McGill, a.k.a. Gene Takavic. So now what was so brilliant to me about Better Call Saul, Saul Goodman, definitely a clown and a con man. But they took great pains throughout, really throughout both shows to point out the fact that he is actually an incredible lawyer. Does he bend the rules? Absolutely. But no one can deny that he was effective. He knows the law. He’s quick, he’s funny, and he will exploit any opening or loophole to win the case. So here was my thought process, right? I thought about it like this. If I was innocent and charged with a crime, who would I hire? And there’s a lot of amazing lawyers out there that I thought, okay, I could go with this person. I could go with that person. If I’m guilty and charged with a crime, there’s really only one choice. Saul Goodman — Better call Saul.
Ryan: [00:16:30] Oh yeah, that makes me totally think of now. I haven’t seen better call Saul. But, you know, we love Breaking Bad here, and one of the scenes I quote quite often is when we first get introduced to Saul Goodman’s character and Jesse Pinkman is driving Walt to the shopping mall where he’s at and he says, You’re bringing me here. And he said, Yeah, we don’t need a criminal lawyer. We need a criminal, lawyer.
Bo: [00:17:00] And Saul Goodman was definitely a criminal, knew every dirty trick, not scared to use them, sometimes going to elaborate lengths to make sure a case comes out in his favor, which is definitely a trait you would admire in a life or death case.
Ryan: [00:17:17] Oh, absolutely.
Bo: [00:17:18] Now, spoiler alert. I’m just going to give an example. But if you have not seen the last episode of Better Call Saul, I’m going to talk about it a little bit, so you might want to skip ahead a minute.
Ryan: [00:17:29] But. Well, I can’t leave the room.
Bo: [00:17:31] All right. This doesn’t count for you because you haven’t started it yet.
Ryan: [00:17:34] That’s true.
Bo: [00:17:35] All right. The last episode of the series is a perfect example of Saul’s skill. He finally gets caught by the police after two years on the run of being one of the most wanted men in the country, okay finally gets caught. The federal prosecutor takes great delight in telling him that based upon his charges, he’s looking at 190 years in prison, plus two life sentences. Oh, and he says, you know, and trust me, they’ve got him dead to rights. You can see the prosecutor just gloating about this easy victory. Right. Well, then Saul starts talking and the next thing you know, somehow within minutes, he literally has talked the government down. Seven years to be served in Bernie Madoff’s country club prison with its own golf course and even makes them agree to give him a weekly pint of blue Bell mint chocolate chip ice cream.
Ryan: [00:18:49] It can’t get better than that.
Bo: [00:18:50] Of all the lawyers on TV. Saul Goodman is going to come through when the chips are down and when it’s the most desperate. So that is why he is my number two draft pick.
Ryan: [00:19:01] That’s a great number, too.
Bo: [00:19:03] All right. Well, we’ve gotten to the big moment, Ryan. You got to pick your team, captain, your number one fictional lawyer. Go-to lawyer of all time.
Ryan: [00:19:17] Well, I mean, is there any is there really any doubt who I’m going to pick here? I’m a huge Suits fan, so it’s got to be Harvey Specter.
Bo: [00:19:27] Fair enough. He was so close to making my list.
Ryan: [00:19:32] He’s just so likeable, so cool. He can just do it all. You know, he’s he’s got the cars, he’s got the women, he’s got the looks. He’s and he’s just super smart. And do any case that gets thrown his way. I mean, it really doesn’t get better than Harvey Specter.
Bo: [00:19:51] And you know what’s crazy is he’s on a show where there are many lawyers that could make these lists. I mean, you got Jessica Pearson, you’ve got Mike Ross, even Louis Litt, all of them brilliant attorneys.
Ryan: [00:20:06] Oh, absolutely. When you when you mentioned the draft, I was thinking I could do a draft all on suits characters, and they’re all great in their own way. But, you know, Harvey, to me, kind of is a is a cut above the rest. I mean, he just he just knows what it what it takes. He’s got the he’s got an incredible poker face by the way, like he — and we we joke about this all the time but he has the ability to walk into a boardroom where this this big decisions about to be made. Somebody’s about to get sued. Somebody is about to get ousted. The whole deal is about to happen. And he comes in with an empty manila folder and he’s got the presence and the charisma to say in this folder in my hand, I have the you know, the one piece of evidence that’s going to blow this whole thing up. So you know you don’t want to to to force my hand to open this envelope. Right. And he’s just sells it so well that everybody’s like, Oh my God, he’s got me, you know, And after every time, you know, Mike or somebody else is like, Oh my God, how did you find that affidavit about this? He’s like, this is my you know, like my birth certificate is like.
Bo: [00:21:25] Once again, would it fit very well into our first episode of Things That Never Happen in Real Life?
Ryan: [00:21:31] Oh, absolutely. But he can sell that so well. And, you know, it’s just always comes to mind. You know, I, I would love the opportunity to do that. But, you know, the second you do that, so I’m just going to say, let me see that.
Bo: [00:21:45] Exactly. Oops.
Ryan: [00:21:47] Oh, I didn’t expect him to do that. But he’s he’s just so great. I mean, he’s so smart. He he he Jessica Pearson really took her under her wing. He’s Harvard educated. He goes and really cuts his teeth in the district attorney’s office and is a prosecutor for a number of years before coming over to Pearson Specter. And, you know, whatever Pearson, whatever their first name was, who was who was the first partner. And there’s been a million partner names in that show. But he he just is able to again, take on any case, no matter the odds. He’s got this real kind of fighter mentality, you know, for his clients, he takes everything probably a little too personally, but he really will get down in the trenches with his clients. He will do what needs to be done. And he also instills in them that, you know, he’s got their back, he’s going to protect them and it’s going to be okay. And that’s when when a client comes to you, when a client comes to a lawyer, it’s often one of the worst days of their lives. Right. Nobody likes calling a lawyer unless it’s, you know, on our entertainment or corporate side where they’re like putting a deal together and filming a movie. That’s great. But on the litigation side, bad stuff has happened and you really want to have a lawyer that is there for you that you feel like is going to have your back no matter what. And, you know, having him as a as a co-captain, that’d be a okay with me.
Bo: [00:23:25] Well, you know, I would say that easily. What makes him, you know, probably one of the best fictional lawyers of all time is the way he was willing to take a younger lawyer under his wing and, you know, show him the ropes. I mean, that by itself just makes him a true hero. I’m sure you would agree.
Ryan: [00:23:43] Yeah. I mean, kind of like what you did with me.
Bo: [00:23:47] Oh, I didn’t even think about that. No, that’s an excellent choice and could easily have been my top choice as well. And let’s not forget, because it is name suits, dresses impeccably.
Ryan: [00:24:00] Oh, absolutely. I mean, who else can pull off a double breasted, you know, like, Oh, I mean, just perfect.
Bo: [00:24:07] With a vest.
Ryan: [00:24:09] With a vest, right.
Bo: [00:24:10] Absolutely. Well, I had a very hard time deciding on my captain. I went back and forth, back and forth, my number one fictional lawyer of all time. It was killing me. And a big part of me wanted to go with Henry Drummond from the movie Inherit the Wind, Hands Down, one of my favorite movies of all time, Spencer Tracy’s take on Henry Drummond, who’s based on Clarence Darrow in a Real case, The Scopes-Monkey Trial. Huge reason I wanted to become a lawyer. That movie by itself. If you’ve never watched the old black and white classic Inherit the Wind, do yourself a favor. Check it out. You will not believe it is based on a true story. It is just a wildly entertaining movie and Henry Drummond is amazing. Just cracks me up throughout the whole thing. But as much as I love Henry Drummond, in the end I had to go my favorite literary character of all time, Atticus Finch.
Ryan: [00:25:17] Of course.
Bo: [00:25:17] To Kill a Mockingbird. Now, what can you say about this man? You know, I mean, Gregory Peck does a fantastic job portraying him in the movie. But the book. But the book is magical. I mean, if you aren’t familiar. Atticus Finch, he’s an attorney, Maycomb County, Alabama, single father to a son, Jim and a daughter Scout, highly respected by every single person that knows him. Lives his entire life with dignity, humility, courage, honesty. But the premise of the book is that this incredibly respected, honorable man, he takes on the case of a black man named Tom Robinson that’s falsely accused of beating a white woman. Now, he knows from the moment he takes that case, he’s going to lose, but he puts his entire soul into defending Tom, no matter the cost. And there is a huge cost. I mean, his kids are picked on in school. A lot of the townspeople are very racist. You know, they’re furious with him, but he never, ever backs down. And the moment in the book that I feel like one of many, but that gives me the most chills. And I think about the most. His daughter, Scout, asks him why he’s representing Tom when everyone in town says that he should not be defending this black man. He looks at her and says, well, they’re certainly entitled to think that and they’re entitled to full respect for their opinions. But before I can live with other folks, I’ve got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn’t abide by majority rule is a person’s conscience.
Ryan: [00:27:26] Wow.
Bo: [00:27:27] Gets me every time. I mean he– Atticus Finch is a personal hero to me. I mean, perhaps the most empathetic character ever written. I mean, he may not have the entertainment value of Alan Shore or Saul Goodman, you know, but the way Harper Lee describes him and To Kill a Mockingbird, he is the perfect example of what an attorney and and just a person and a father should be. Loving father, skilled lawyer stays true to his conscience. So if I had one case to decide my entire life, I wouldn’t hesitate to call on Atticus Finch.
Ryan: [00:28:16] Yeah. I mean, wow. Talking about Atticus Finch, it just makes me think about our firm’s core values. Handling every matter with integrity.
Bo: [00:28:26] Well, for sure. I mean, I can’t even hear the word integrity without immediately thinking of Atticus Finch. I mean, he. You mentioned our firm’s core values. We have five values that we try to live by here at the Bowen Law Group every day. And that is one of them handle every matter with integrity. And, you know, that’s where that came from. Atticus Finch, when we came up with that, that was the name that immediately popped in my mind. He could very well be the greatest literary character of all time. I mean, name another character just whose very name is immediately synonymous with honesty, righteousness, politeness, courage, empathy. You know, throw in the fact that he’s also a damn good lawyer, and that’s why he’s my number one fit.
Ryan: [00:29:20] You mean? Kind of like how the Bowen Law Group has been the number-one pick of anyone that has ever needed a corporate or entertainment lawyer.
Bo: [00:29:26] Exactly, Ryan. And also, course, why we were the very first law firm to ever be selected in the first round of both the NFL and NBA Draft. Allegedly.
Ryan: [00:29:40] That’s our show for today. Thanks for listening to the legal mastery of the highly intelligent and easily most attractive to true legal outliers in Savannah. And remember, the only lawyers in the free world who have never lost a single case, allegedly, to continue to receive free edge of your seat, legal anecdotes, mind-blowing, takes on hot legal topics and a general master class in law awesomeness. Please head over to the Bone Log eCommerce podcast and look for Hey.
Bo: [00:30:06] Dude, no further questions. Just hit subscribe already.